Lets not forget the season finale. Zuko himself had taken waterbending techniques and combined them with firebending. Fire whips, his first attack against Azula and her Body Gaurds was some what like a waterbender's attack, atleast, thats what I've heard about. And what about the Sandbenders? They are earthbenders that bend soemthing completely far fetched from the solid earthbending stance. There fore, it is not a theory but a fact in the show. Yay!

Lava isn't a part of firebending. It is molten earth and therefore is only bent by earthbenders. I actually wanted to do that when I first joined the site and took on Katara in the RPG Battle School. However, I was quickly shot down due to a lack of knowledge on who Avatar Roku was; a master of both earthbending and firebending.

Anywho, another example of bending outside of ones element is when Aang's first firebending mentor, Jeong Jeong, threw up a wall of fire to escape from the group attempting to capture him. This is just in reference to example above.

Also, an experienced earthbender could make an earth whip. Assuming he made it in small sections, it could be done quite easily.

@ Deyna - I don't want to get too off target here, so I'll just type up a short rebuttle about this. The only bending art that lava irrefutably falls into is Firebending, as in the show during the "Avatar State" episode, there are a series of scenes showing past Avatars in the Avatar State performing one element after the other in an incredible fashion. When it reaches Firebending, the scene shows a past life causing four volcanoes to erupt with great gouts of lava. It can be argued that Earthbenders can also bend lava, I even made a thread about this somwhere for discussion, but there is no refrence of it in the series.

Now to the point of the thread. There have been many instances where Earthbenders, especially Aang and Toph, use earth in a way akin to waterbending. I even believe they were doing much of this as they were storming the Earth King's palace late into the second Book. Besides, they can also probably bend mud this way with ease.

However, one has to decide how far these changes have to go before they're considered as incorporating other styles of bending. Were Zuko's firewhips an immitation of Waterbending or are they just super-enlarged firedaggers as have been seen plenty of times before and are simply a natural ability of experianced Firebenders?

Triggering a volcano isn't the same as bending lava. Did you see him/her bend the molten rock after it erupted?

Maybe that particular avatar only used the volcano eruption (with earthbending) to represent the fire element...

Don't get me wrong...I mean no offense and I actually want you to be right about this because I am facing Joychi in the volcano environment. I am just trying to eliminate all other possibilities.

First of all, the past Avatar caused the volcanoes to erupt through firebending, by dragging the lava upwards. That's when he bent the lava in the clip, to answer your first statement.

Second, this thought that the Avatar used earthbending to represent firebending? Come now, that's a horribly farfetched claim. Each element was given its chance in that sequence. Earthbending had great statues being moved about I believe, waterbending had a tsunami-like wave, airbending had a gust of wind that flattened the tall grass of a large expanse of plain. Yet, somehow, you think that firebending was the only element represented by another element? Occam's Razor, the simplest answer is most likely the right one. You can pick away at anything and make ludicrous claims, but they'll simply not be true. The lava was bent by firebending, plain and simple.

(( Since I posted second to last and nothing new has been contributed to the actual topic of this thread, I couldn't also keep anything in this post on topic, don't hate me v.v ))

One thing is true; when you properly incorporate one style of fighting into another, with its proper use and time, it's an improvement. Strict fighting styles that ignore others cannot adapt and will stagnate. Even the traditional styles evolved as an incorporation of adaptations to situations into one set of useful, need-to-know techniques.
At least, that's how I see it. Draw your own conclusions; there's no official info yet.

to Help out Doku well it may or may not help him

Consider what fire is. If you've ever played with fire you probably know that fire is just a lot of heat caused by the combustion of molecules. Exclude the fancy chemistry and basicly flames are created by fire or "heat". If a firebender controls heat then the lava would be controlled by the heat within the superheated rock known to use as Magma and later as Lava.

Now Doku has a highly viable explaination, but at the same time so does deyna. Deyna is saying that the magma and lava were earthbend which is understandable. The avatar could have controlled the rock and since the heat is using rock as a vessel the extreme temperatures will come with the rock.

In a sense you are both right. If you don't understand where i am coming at. Then use these as an example. Both toph and Katara could control the sludge coming from the drill which was a mix of water and earth. Toph controlled the earth in the sludge and katara controlled the water.

Toph also uses the earth that wasn't refined out of the metal. So she can bend metal simply because the earth is attached together with the steel. It's all a matter of what elements are put together. So both doku and deyna can stop arguing over the lava lol. Both of them have HIGHLY viable reasoning

Yea Takano's got that one right. When you have a combination of elements in a substance such as the sludge on "The Drill", benders can move the substance by bending their specific element. The same applies to lava. Theres not much point debating it, because its obvious from the evidence found in the show that this is how it works. What could be tricky to figure is that the only time I've seen lava being bent is on the intro, where avatar Roku bends lava, which arises the question, can you move lava only when you are the avatar and therefore able to bend the earth and the heat/fire?

Well, my opinion is that water and fire could not merge, (sorry). Fire is so dynamic and is brought forth by rage. Water is calm and flowing. Water has to have a source, Fire doesn't (technically it needs air, but I mean an already existing source). Fire can be water, like what Zuko did in the finale, but water can't be fire, because water doesn't protrude from your fingertips or fist. It's like that weird 'a square can be a rectangle but a rectangle can't be a square' thing.

On the other hand, Water can be like earth in it's solid form (ice), and Earth can mimic water with sand. Air... air, air, air... Air can be fire, because air is all around us, air can be water, but I don't think air can be earth.

PRAISE YOU TAKANO! Your reasoning will hopefully bring peace to this topic. Probally not but lets not dwell on that shall we? The reason I incoporated this topic was not to discuss what benders can bend but if they can bend them the way other benders bend. We've seen Zuko incoporate both firebending and waterbending. How do we know this? The first time he attacked Azula after his transformation. His attack was so similiar to a waterbenders. Then there are the whips. Those were fire whips, not daggers. They were far to flexible to be a dagger. You get where I am going with this?

For toru's objection.

Water can't be fire. They are to opposites. But disregarding that. what i'm getting and questioned by is the "air can be fire and air can be water" That part i have to disagree with. Air is not the source of air. Heat is. Look at the Sun. It's a blistering fireball. It creates heat for planets and scorches one of them. Yet it is comprised of Hydrogen and Helium. Interesting? Hydrogen atoms in our "air" is only existing with the combination of oxygen which is what is what is burned to create fire.

okay i'm going to go off on an entire different area.

Okay since a firebender controls "heat" (which in turn creates fire and flames) then can it remove heat from the air? I'm curious on everyone's thoughts. A firebender can create heat and throw it around. Can they pull it away and disperse that power? If they could that means they can supercool objects and easily shatter them or destroy them in a similar sense water benders do with water and freezing the water.

Don't hate on me for this idea it's and "IDEA" I'm just saying this because when Zhou absorbed Zuko's fireball and destroyed it in the episode "southern air temple" during the agni kai

I'm not hating but, I think that heat can not be taken away. Heat is an energy and the law of conservation of energy states that energy can not be created or destroyed. THat's like if waterbenders could suck the water out of everything and the water would just be gone. In that episode, Zhao just redirected the fire from him, like splitting it in half and it just trailed behind him. THe law of conservation of energy also raises up a question of mine. If heat cannont be created... If a firebender can not create heat from the fire... does it take energy from the body? If someone firebends too much? Do they eventually get weak? or die?

Doesn't anyone who bends their element for long and intense periods of time become weak? Aang could only take out a few Fire Navy ships in Siege of the North before needing to rest.

It is all fueled by ones' chi? You use your chi for such intense actions, you'll run out for a time until you can 'recharge your batteries' so to speak. It seems to me that any bender would have to rest before being able to bend again. Though, I don't believe that a firebender would actually die from such strenuous bending.

Back onto the topic bending outside your element, I think that it is possible, it just is all dependent on the type of moves you are using. Some are compatible (such as Zuko and Katara using their various elemental whips, and Iroh redirecting the lightning similar to the redirection techniques of waterbending) whereas some would not be. The Guru did talk about the four elements and nations not being separate. Indeed everything is connected, and all bending disciplines are martial arts.

Another thing that I just thought of, it is also a matter of mind set. While Aang did not earthbend to defend Sokka against the saber-tooth-moose-lion in Bitter Work, he did have the attitude of an earthbender, standing his ground. That, to me, says that you can use your element in different ways by taking advantage of the different mind sets and styles of bending.

No, I don't think anyone's going to go bending earth when they're a waterbender or anything like that. But it is the mind set and basic principles that could make you a steady and grounded waterbender, or a fluid and adaptable firebender.

Maybe they're trying to get across the idea of balance and that only by understanding the other nations will they be able to achieve true peace?

I dunno. Just some of my thoughts on these subjects.

I'm still not totally convinced that Zuko mimiced Waterbending during that latest season finale. Those whips he made arn't nessicarily outside of his element. He once created a 'fire sword' of sorts that bended when he brought it down towards Aang. Azula made a whip of sorts, a long string of blue fire, to ground Aang when he tried to flee their fight. Maybe when the fire daggers grow long enough they become alot more flexible. Obviously fire is not a solid, so it would make sense that after a certain length a Firebender couldn't maintain ridgidity.

It just seems so strange that Zuko would take his Uncle's words to heart so quickly and abruptly, and beyond that integrate them into things Iroh never discussed or probably even thought about. Besides, have we ever seen a waterbender before Katara in that season finale use a water whip that protruded from the hand? I don't ever recall it. That makes me wonder if they're just similar ways that two elements can be used to almost mirror eachother.

Doku, why are you having a hard time believing in this? It makes perfect sense to me that you cna combin certain bending styles that change and adapt the way you bend your element. So what if watebenders can't make whips from their hands like Zuko made fire whips (if it is flexible and long then it is not a sword) from his fists. That doesn't mean that it is a technique that every firebender knows. Maybe we can look at it in another perspective. From the begining of the show who has Zuko been up against alot of times? Katara. What is Katara? A waterbender. I know people who learn by watching, why can't Zuko be the same? And lets not forget Zuko's transformation. He became extremely open minded. And I thing that if it was anything like the daggers it wouldn't protrude from his fists. It would protrude from his grip like the knives. And the reason why we haven't seen any waterbenders use whips protruding from their fists is because they don't generate the water. If you don't believe me then look at some of the episodes, like when Uncle is teaching Zuko about lightening, or when Guru explains that the nations are all linked together. Do some of your own research.

Given that water and fire are opposites, it's possible that the elemental whips used by Katara and Zuko are just techniques that are shared by both styles, but I'm more inclined to believe it was an emulation of waterbending because of Zuko's movements being more fluid and circular than his style tends to be. It was all arm movements, circular and flowing in motion. Up until recently, Zuko's style has been fast and harsh (and circular to an extent), lacking a certain amount of finesse.

It's true, I can't recall another usage of the water whip other than Katara's. The closest I can remember to anything whip like was the firebending performer in the Deserter. I guess I'd have to look at that again to see the movements and how similar they are to Zuko's.

I still believe it's possible with different mind sets as I said above, but you do bring up a good point about the whips. I wish I'd learned more Northern Shaolin so I could recognize all the moves...

I never thumbed my nose at the concept of incorporating one element's style into another. I remember the episode inwhich Iroh spoke of redirecting lightning through the stomach in a waterbending fashion. Yet this does not prove Zuko's techniques in the finale as being his own adaptation to firebending using the same concept. During Iroh's lesson, he proved that the incorporation of waterbending into firebending for the redirecting process is very vague. Its not a dramatic style-changer.

Now when you say Zuko's been fighting Katara alot, what series have you been watching? I mean, he's battled her maybe two, three times tops. Its Aang that he's been matched up against the most and you don't see him creating embers and sending them through the air in an airbender fashion or anything of that sort. If what you say is true, he could have thought fast enough to think up a way to incorporate airbending into his strategy from the experiance he has had fighting the Avatar.

Also, the fire whips would not necissarily extend from the grip, as do the daggers. When Zuko made a fire sword, it extended from the knuckles, acting as an extention of the hand much as how the whips did so.

Now, I can expand on that to strengthen my theory that the fire whip and hand-held water whip are just similar techniques. If you recall a particular battle between Aang and Zuko, I believe it was the one where Zuko hires that female bounty hunter to aide him in capturing the Avatar, the two were battling it out up on the rooftops. That's when Zuko used his fire sword and brought it down on Aang, who I believed deflected it. Soon after, Aang made a similar sword, only out of wind. Was he copying fire-style? I don't think so. He hadn't had any prior training in Firebending at that time, nor had he had any lessons or concepts of incorporating styles as Zuko had learned from his uncle Iroh. And yet, the two swords were eeirly similar to eachother and each attacked in the same fashion.

There's not going to be a way to know until the next season comes around, but I think this was just a show of how similar the elements are and how they can be used in mirror-like fashions.

You do bring up some good points. The performer's fire whip from the Deserter appeared as if he had created a real whip, with the fire appearing I guess from the grip. Zuko's in Crossroads of Destiny extend intitially from his knuckles, leading me to believe they are not the exact same type of whips. When watching Katara and Zuko fight with their respective whips, they use (although it is a little difficult to see) almost the exact same arm motions against each other for a few seconds.

When Aang and Zuko fought in Bato of the Water Tribe in the abbey, Zuko used an upward slashing motion, causing a wave of fire to shoot upward at Aang. When the tables were turned, Aang used the exact same motion to create at wave of air (not a sword in what I'd consider the sense of the word, but they are the same exact motions).

Maybe this is all because they are all rooted in martial arts, and as such can share some similar movements?

It's a lot to examine. It could be that some disciplines share similar moves with similar effects. Also, the time that Zuko trained with Iroh in Bitter Work is possibly longer than just what we saw in the episode, as well. It is possible, however unlikely, that Iroh taught Zuko a few other things about incorporating other styles into his bending.

With the points you brought up, Doku, I'm now somewhere in the middle ground. I still believe that depending on mind set and the type of move you use (since some are definitely from one particular discipline) you could 'bend beyond your element,' but using Zuko's whips as an example of this is too ambiguous to hold up.

Edited: I realized I wrote 'fire' when I meant 'air.' I know you probably know what I mean, but I just had to change it. I'm crazy. ^_^