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Plot Update 10 March 2021

A year has passed since Fire Lord Zuko ascended the throne, and it seems like trouble is brewing between the Fire Nation and the Earth Kingdom once more. The Fire Lord and the Avatar began the Harmony Restoration Movement to restore the Fire Nation Colonies to their pre-war state by bringing any Fire Nation nationals back home, but for many of the citizens — of mixed Fire Nation and Earth Kingdom … Read more ›

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saiki
Aug 6, 2010 19:58:48 GMT -6

Post by saiki on Aug 6, 2010 19:58:48 GMT -6

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Tenoko, although the Constitution is a document that is designed to "last through the ages" as you stated, then why is the ability to change it even possible? I'll tell you why, it is so that as our society changes, it can change with us. There is no way that this document is supposed to remain a certain way forever. The articles of the Constitution will of course never change for those are set in stone. States have their own rights, the executive, judicial, and legislative all have their roles to play and so on and so forth. But Amendments are necessary. If we didn't change this document, then we'd still be living in a day and age where basics rights, as I already mentioned, wouldn't have been given to blacks and women.

What would be the purpose of Article V if not to change the document? Our Founding Fathers gave us this Freedom because they knew that America was a growing and thriving nation and supported by a large array of different people with different cultures. There was no way everyone was going to share the same beliefs, and why should they? America was where you could think differently and express your beliefs freely.

Obama isn't the reason the Constitution is changing, the PEOPLE are. And changes to this document were made well before he even came into office. It is a living document capable of change, just as we are.
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Last edit by saiki: Aug 6, 2010 20:04:03 GMT -6
hanabi
Aug 6, 2010 20:05:41 GMT -6

Post by hanabi on Aug 6, 2010 20:05:41 GMT -6

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Let's just point this out real quick:

Main Entry: mar·riage
Pronunciation: \ˈmer-ij, ˈma-rij\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English mariage, from Anglo-French, from marier to marry
Date: 14th century

1 a (1) : the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law (2) : the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage <same-sex marriage> b : the mutual relation of married persons : wedlock c : the institution whereby individuals are joined in a marriage
2 : an act of marrying or the rite by which the married status is effected; especially : the wedding ceremony and attendant festivities or formalities
3 : an intimate or close union


This is the definition of marriage. As you may have noticed, the definition does not state anything about marriage being defined as a union between only a man and a woman. Comments that allude to the definition of marriage excluding same-sex couples are therefore flawed.


Number 1 seems to counter act what you said in the bellow note.
I like the way Tenoko thinks. It says relationships 'like that of a traditional marriage'.

But on the Pedophilia part, I think it's between 2 partners consenting and of age. But still, by what you are saying Incest fits in... But this discussion is hitting the pits pretty dang fast.

While I'm not a Mormon myself, I know Mormons are some of the nicest most helpful well dressed people you will meet. They will come to you, and help you with just about anything you need to get done all so they can talk to you about what they believe can save your soul. Which is a truly noble thing.

But as for the constitution thing. I still absolutely disagree with it being altered over and over again. I believe that 'Laws' should be flexible. But the core principles of our nation should not. Much like a flag is flexible and mailable to the wind, but the flag pole is not. If there is too much give, then what was once the code of our forefathers won't even resemble what they originally intended for the nation.

The reason behind the separation of Church and State was to stop there from being a state religion, to allow freedom to people to worship vie their own doctrines without America becoming a second Vatican.

That separation is taken out of bounds and a lot of states are losing the freedoms of choice on a lot of issues. School for one. You are required in a public school system to teach a child evolution. Even if you yourself think it is false. You will get kicked out if you tell them that it is one of many theories about how the world came to be.

The question itself seems to be simply this on the whole issue, boiled down to one sentence.

"Is it okay to take something shared by many, that predates our nation, and alter it as we see fit?" I for one don't think it is.

I won't go into details about the separation of church and state. That's another discussion entirely. Though it is very related. The fact of the matter is no matter what you say or who you convince, they are still separate. Why? How? What should it be like? All mute questions that have answers that won't change the world.

The biggest threat to our nation is Economy. In 20 years Gay Marriage may not even be a subject because we may have finally tapped the last penny. I know War is bad for the Economy. So is needless government expansion. So is the continued payed repeals on matters of weddings. Obama is our president and though I didn't vote for him. As an American I will stand behind him. Even if I am worried. But again. The Economy is another topic. One I'm sure I'd like to have some people from America's Debtors involved in.

Saiki is right, People are the reason for this. It's been going on for longer then any president or string of presidents have been in power.

But when there are problems People naturally point fingers away from themselves. They never say "I voted for this health repeal that crashed our economy." they say "The president ruined the nation." When in fact the President can't wave a hand and magically change things either.
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Last edit by saiki: Aug 6, 2010 20:10:39 GMT -6
taedxoa
Aug 9, 2010 8:48:35 GMT -6

Post by taedxoa on Aug 9, 2010 8:48:35 GMT -6

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This is ridiculously good reading. Maybe this means I thrive on conflict. O_o

I actually have very little else to say, that either I didn't say before, or someone else has not said for me (or said what I said, but better). But I would like to clarify one little point before we go back to legalities.

Some people are saying "homosexuality is a choice" and other people are saying "no it's not, you're born that way." It's both. I would never have chosen this for myself, it tore me up when I finally had to admit to myself that I was bi; I came out publicly in '07 cause I saw no reason to deal with the internal melodrama of keeping it a secret, and it's taken me until quite recently to come to terms with me being who I am. But I have friends and acquaintances who are the other way, who voluntarily chose/decided to enjoy same-sex relations, either for shock value or to impress someone or make other connections. Or probably for a plethora of other reasons, I'm no expert after all.

[Kami, please ignore the following ^_^] For those of you who might make a religious objection to the "people are born gay" thing, consider this: most religions in which the religious texts condemn homosexuality, suggest that humans are born in sinful nature and have to overcome it, so what's being born gay but another "sinful" nature at birth? [Kthx you can pay attention again, lol]
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hanabi
Aug 9, 2010 9:55:30 GMT -6

Post by hanabi on Aug 9, 2010 9:55:30 GMT -6

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*Facepalm.*

Bei, I have several gay friends myself. And none of them are offended by my point of view. I live in a black neighborhood and I am friends with most of the neighbors. If saying 'Gay' is offensive in a debate about homosexual marriage then this entire thread is inappropriate. And only people who are or are close friends with a gay person should be allowed to post in the debate. Which would in itself negate the point of a debate.

I know more about homosexuality then you'd think. But again that is off the subject. I've said my thoughts on why I disagree with Homosexual Marriage.

I'm not sure what anything I said has to do with the black population. Obama is black, but my stance behind what I did was not over his race. But over a disagreement with his policies. I lost the vote and I will stand behind the president of the United States. If you are thinking I'm making a stab at his Economics then start another debate over that. But the Economy was going south long before he was in. And I don't think any new President is going to change that.

If you're going to play that game, I can play it too. You've basically accused me of being a Racist Homophobe.

And if Disagreeing with someone is taking a blow at peoples views then debates shouldn't happen period.

My mom was a Lesbian a long time ago when she was growing up. It was a mix of bad experiences of men in her life. But Homosexuality isn't a matter of attraction but choice. You're not gay for what you feel. You are gay for what you choose. If I see a guy and feel attracted to him and do nothing I'm not gay. Now if I make a pass at the guy then suddenly I may be gay. I know more about Homosexuality then you would ever guess. You may have a gay friend. But I have a mom who was gay who has life stories related back to that time in her life who's known and been friends with more Gay People in her life then you will probably ever know.

This is a debate, simple as that. I disagree with Gay Marriage for the reasons of politics, the president is a key figure in that political puzzle and I don't even begin to get where you think I'm attacking black people.

What offends me is not when people say "Gay" when talking about Gay Marriage. But when they say 'gay' in reference to something bad.

*Points at gay friend.* "He's gay." Doesn't offend people because he is 'gay' by his own admission. You shouldn't do that if your friend is Gay but isn't comfortable with it. Or if you don't has his approval to do so. But the act itself isn't offensive.

*Goes outside and finds car destroyed and a dog pissing on the wreckage while some guy slaps a girl across the street.* "Well that's Gay." This is more offensive as it automatically attributes bad with homosexuals. I shouldn't have to explain why it is bad. It automatically stereotypes them to bad things and turns Homosexual people from people into things.

I've said all I'm going to say on this. But I don't like your insinuations Bei. I have not personally attacked anyone in this debate.

With that I think this thread should be locked.
There are 2 signs a debate is over.
1: Bringing Nazi's into a topic not involving WW2.
2: Personal Attacks.

Thankfully number 1 hasn't happened.
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Post by A Long Display Name Here on Aug 9, 2010 11:26:51 GMT -6

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All right. I had hoped this wouldn't happen here on TARP, but I suppose with a matter such as this it was inevitable.

As I stated in my opening post - everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Whether you find this opinion contrary to yours or not, it does not give you leave to start calling people names, insulting their beliefs, and generalising everyone in the thread that's posted. If you want to debate the topic, do so properly: by offering up your opinion and backing it up with reliable sources, such as I have done. A proper debate does not consist of personal insults, generalisations of thread participants, and most importantly of all, it does not consist of swearing (which, by the way, is against forum rules, which I specifically said in the OP this thread must follow).

This thread will remain open; however, there are a few people who will be receiving PMs from me and having their warning levels increased. As I stated in the OP, TARP has a zero-tolerance policy on bashing people for their beliefs, regardless of how 'against the grain' they might be, even to the Core Staff.

Anyone that posts after this in a manner that is rude, offensive (to either side of the debate), inflammatory, or in any way contrary to the forum rules will find themselves with a +50% level (in addition to whatever level you may have at that point). Harsh? Probably — well, no, it is harsh; but TARP has always been a friendly site, regardless of political, religious, or personal view, and we pride ourselves in it.

TL;DR - Be nice, and inoffensive. PMs to a select number of responders incoming, including warning levels. Further inflammatory/insulting responses will receive +50% to their warning levels.
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inkstains
Aug 18, 2010 13:50:35 GMT -6

Post by inkstains on Aug 18, 2010 13:50:35 GMT -6

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Hi everyone! Yay, debates with people cool people! And yes, I mean that in a creepy way. I’m the nerdy kid trying to infiltrate the Cool Crowd... =D
So here are my thoughts…

Concerning Rights: Having the Right to, for example, pursue happiness is only a guarantee that nothing will stand in your way should you make the choice to pursue your own definition of happiness. It also means that you have the right to decide that you do not want to pursue happiness. The key word here is choice, this choice is protected by law. It does not guarantee that every person will be able to achieve happiness- that would be silly.

Within this particular Right, “happiness” is another key word, because it is subject to personal definition. Some people think happiness is giving and helping less fortunate people better their quality to life. Other people think happiness is stepping on their friends so that they appear to be superior. Are these people assholes? Yes. But they are operating within their rights, and so long as they are not preventing their friends from making the choice to leave them and pursue happiness with better friends, they are not operating outside of the law.

Marriage falls under the Right to pursue happiness. The key word within this particular “sub-Right” (Of course not meaning that it is less important, but simply that it falls under the umbrella of the Right written in the Constitution) is “Marriage.” While some people are very adamant about their particular definition of marriage, the reality is that it is subject to many cultural and personal definitions.

I fully understand the conservative agenda of trying to preserve the “original” definition of marriage. (And I’m not using this word as if being “conservative” and being “stupid” is the same thing, as some people like to toss around “conservative” and “liberal,” depending on whose side you’re on. I mean it quite literally and I am referring to the stance of “conserving” something people see as sacred, which is definitely a noble intention.) However, like most ancient words and practices, I’m sure there’s a lot of debate about what the “original” marriage was primarily based upon- whether it was based on love, or whether it was based on financial benefits for all families/nations involved, or whatever.

Because it is such unknown territory, I hope you don’t mind if I disregard this hypothetical “first marriage” and I instead focus on a historical generalization: marriage, in many cultures and for many centuries, was (and still is, for some) about finances and increased power. However, for the majority of people now present in the United States, the cultural definition of marriage has changed from “A union between consenting or un-consenting people for the financial gain of all parties involved, who wish to stay together primarily in order to preserve the honor of said parties” to “A union between consenting individuals for love and happiness, who wish to stay together primarily to love and support each other for life.”

This is a majority rule, however it does not apply to every single person. In addition to the people that are moved by love and dedication to make sacred vows to each other, there are those who are marrying to take care of their children or to move across country borders or simply to obtain the benefits of being legally married. To my Indian friend, marriage was only just barely made her choice: Her grandmother asked her if she would like for her to pick out a suitable boy from India for her to marry. She was fortunate enough to have the choice to decline, but remember again that this is only a recent development.

I’m going to briefly bring God and religion into this. I think it very likely that God was a very important presence within even the oldest of marriage ceremonies. God was the binding factor, whatever the reasons for marriage were, and the union was made “before God.” However, with the changes in the cultural definition of marriage, it’s disputable whether or not God is the “key element.” Our culture is one of mixed religions and beliefs, including the choice to have no religion. And so the cultural definition generally places more emphasis on love and making vows to each other. Secondarily, the vows are made before God, for those who believe, and this might make the marriage valid, or more valid, in their eyes. For those who don’t believe or who believe in a different way (I belong to this category. I believe in God, but I do not believe that God would ever condone anything that comes from love, including the desire for two people to marry each other), the marriage is just as valid if it is made only each other: for them, the sacred element need be nothing more than love.

So whatever definition of marriage is “older” or carries more religious weight means little to me. I voted to support my belief that marriage falls under the right to pursue happiness, regardless of gender and regardless of what your definition of happiness is so long as it doesn’t infringe on the rights of others.

Concerning Choices: I’m going to quickly distinguish between what I believe is “genuinely gay” and what isn’t, and I’m going to use myself as an example. And I’ll admit off the bat that this is essentially a reiteration of what Taed Xoa said on the matter, but I’m going to say it anyway haha.
I am “genuinely ‘straight’” (whatever that means- I’m actually not really that straight lol, I have horrible posture). This means that, while I can look at women and think they’re beautiful and even incredibly sexy, I only experience that little jump and flutter in my stomach with men that I think are sexy. I could summarize this and say I am only interested in or attracted to men, and not women. This means that I could kiss, have sex with, and even get into a relationship with a woman and still not be gay- I just don’t feel that same magnetism towards women as I do towards men. This is not a choice, this is simply how I am, in all my wonderfulness. (=

There are those who like to argue that being born a certain way is not a defense that something is “right,” and I agree. If someone is born with murderous tendencies, and murdering is their way of "pursuing their own definition of happiness", this right is still not guaranteed to them by the Constitution because of the simple fact that they are infringing on other people’s Right to the pursuit of happiness and, obviously, to life. This applies to pedophilia as well, and in a way to bestiality. Statutory rape is formed on the basis that the minor is too young to make a the choice yet, whether or not they protest to the act being consensual. Gay relationships and gay marriage cannot be compared to these things in this way, if they are between two consenting adults, and especially if they are based on love.

I won’t argue that there aren’t people who make the choice. These people are going against their natural tendencies, often times when they are young and confused about their own feelings, and in my experiences with people who make this choice that are my age, and with my grandmother as well who went through this “phase,” they oftentimes come to terms with their own feelings in time and settle on one orientation, whether it be gay, straight, or bisexual. This is similar to gay people who make the “choice” to behave like a straight person, and hopefully are given enough peace and acceptance one day in order to come to terms with their own identity.

</thoughts>
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