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Discussion/Debate: Earthbending

kaitokatashi
Feb 20, 2009 9:42:36 GMT -6

Post by kaitokatashi on Feb 20, 2009 9:42:36 GMT -6

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This discussion/debate is a result of a discussion Toph and I had last night about the mechanics of a certain bending style.

Note: This is not the place to discuss creative uses for Earthbending.

Earthbending. The ability to manipulate earth and earth-based materials. It's a pretty cool form of bending, but what is it?

When I ask what Earthbending is, I'm asking exactly that. Unfortunately, Mike and Bryan never really got down and dirty into the mechanics of Earthbending, but there you go.

Anyway, I'll present my argument as to what I think Earthbending really is, then hopefully, Toph will post hers after some prodding. :P

As with other bending, I think that Earthbending is the ability for an Earthbender to channel the energy of the earth/earth-based materials and manipulate them. While rocks, dirt, and other earthen materials don't necessarily emanate the same energy humans would, I figure that the ability of an Earthbender lies in manipulating the seismic energy within the earth.

I have heard some people say that Earthbending is the ability to manipulate the minerals within earth-based substances, but my argument against this is the Earthebenders' ability to soften the ground. Just as Waterbenders have the ability to change the phase of water, Earthebenders can harden or soften the ground.

Toph is able to Metalbend by "seeing" the tiny bits of earth in the metal and bending them, but as whether she was bending minute amounts of earth or minute amounts of minerals was never specified, I'll refrain from using this point in my argument. I will, however, use the point that Toph "sees" through vibrations, or seismic energy (seismic energy is defined as the energy created by vibrations in the earth). This leads me to believe that Earthbenders have a connection to the earth's seismic energy and are able to channel it to manipulate the earth.

So, that's my argument, and I'll be sure to poke Toph into posting hers. :P

< Toph Edit: ALL MEMBERS: please note, that as this is a debate/discussion thread — any belief or idea bashing, as of this post on, will constitute a warning level increase. I've seen too many good theory threads [here, and on other forums] get derailed beyond all hope because flaming starts. >
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Last edit: Feb 21, 2009 4:09:03 GMT -6

Post by A Long Display Name Here on Feb 21, 2009 0:02:33 GMT -6

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No need to poke, I'm right here. =P Though, when talking about earthbending, maybe easier to refer to me as KaToph? Or TARPToph?

I'm thinking, that spirituality aside [as spirituality determines -who- bends], the 'down and dirty' of earth bending is contact. Firebending aside, as fire apparently is determined from within, all other bendings require contact with some form of their element — water and air, are all around us. I'm figuring earthbending would much go the same.

One of the biggest arguments that could be used here would be King Bumi's ability to bend earth-made materials that were out of his physical reach. I'm going to note here that King Bumi has had one, if not two, entire life times to reach this level of mastery. That said, I don't think he's doing this because earth emits energy, but rather its a form of --for lack of a better word-- telekenisis [geokenisis?].

"An Earthbender's powers are firmly rooted to the ground they stand on. Removing them any substantial distance from the earth, such as in the air or on the ocean, strips them of their ability to bend. Particularly powerful Earthbenders, such as Bumi, are able to bend effectively with the smallest gestures, and quite possibly with sheer concentration, as shown in the flashback in which he frees himself and takes back Omashu during the Day of Black Sun. " [Source]

Now, if we take this statement as truth [as it's a wiki, we ought to be careful, but for argument's sake], then it only stands to reason that the necessity for contact to the earth is because actual molecules are being manipulated.

"but my argument against this is the Earthebenders' ability to soften the ground. Just as Waterbenders have the ability to change the phase of water, Earthebenders can harden or soften the ground."

Hardening or softening the ground would be a matter of simply altering the spacing of said molecules, much like water is turned solid or gaseous when water molecules are compact or spaced far apart, respectively.

"Toph is able to Metalbend by "seeing" the tiny bits of earth in the metal and bending them, but as whether she was bending minute amounts of earth or minute amounts of minerals was never specified, I'll refrain from using this point in my argument. I will, however, use the point that Toph "sees" through vibrations, or seismic energy (seismic energy is defined as the energy created by vibrations in the earth). "

Yet Toph is a special case. "Seismic Sense: A technique originally used by the blind badgermoles, skilled Earthbenders are able to sense vibrations through the ground, "seeing" by sensing their surroundings and making a mental image of it. Being blind, Toph constantly uses this technique to navigate the world, she describes it as "kind of like seeing with my feet". During his training with Toph, Aang also developed this ability; they are the only known humans to use this technique. " [Source] I think, that in terms of seismic energy, that earthbenders aren't controlling it, or harnessing it, but rather are acting as a conduit [much like Iroh's technique with lightning] and redirecting natural energy. That said, I think that many of the more obvious 'conduit' techniques would be very difficult for an earth bender to acquire, barring special cases such as Toph, King Bumi, and Aang/the Avatar.
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kyozuki
Feb 21, 2009 1:44:47 GMT -6

Post by kyozuki on Feb 21, 2009 1:44:47 GMT -6

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I'll go out on a limb here, and put earthbending down to chakra - no, that's not a way of weaseling out of an explanation, I'm saying that in the avatar universe, there exists a physical force of nature/physics that could be approximated to our notion of chakra - a force generated by living things (not exactly the same, as I'll explain later, but I'll use the word anyway - it gives the right idea). I'm not just pulling that out of the air either - as I remember, when Aang was getting training from that monk to attain control over the avatar state, they were doing it by unblocking various chakra reserves. Bending, of any type, is essentially the ability to use the inherent chakra in a certain element to your advantage.

Now, since water and air aren't "alive" in the conventional sense, I'm going to modify the basic idea and propose this idea: each form of bending is in fact utilising a different form of chakra. Firebending is utilising the inherent chakra of living things - thus, firebenders create fire from their own breath, converting their own energy into a physical form. This also explain why certain highly skilled firebenders (Iroh, Azulah and Ozai) can create and bend lightning - after all, lightning technically isn't fire - it's a more 'pure' form of energy. Firebending emphasises raw power - the energy of life.

I'll stop there before I get sidetracked into talking about how all types of bending work. Suffice to say that earthbending works in a similar fashion to firebending: except instead of using their own energy, earthbenders use the energy inherent in geological rock. Now, this energy is similar to firebending in that it is based on living things (hence why water is opposed to fire, but earth isn't). But instead of using the free-flowing, libreated energy of a living person, earthbending uses the 'crystallised' energy of rocks.

Bear in mind that rocks fall into one of three categories: sedimentary, igneous, and metamorphic. Sedimentary rock is the compressed remains of organic material - the residual life energy in those organisms gets 'trapped' in the rock, and is there ready to be tapped into. Even being worn down into sand doesn't release this energy, although it does make it harder to control, as Toph discovered while trying to prevent the sand bandits from stealing Appa. Igneous rock is formed by molten lava reaching the surface and cooling into solid rock. Again, energy is trapped within - only instead of organic energy, it is pure heat energy. I'd say that this makes little or no difference to the earthbenders ability to use it - heat energy and life energy are essentially the same, as evidenced by firebenders. The confirmation of this can be seen when Aang organises the earthbenders of the fortune-tellers village to dig a trench to divert the lava flow. Being at the base of a volcano, it is almost certain that the soil in the area is volcanic. Finally, metamorphic rock is sedimentary rock that has been subjected to great heat and pressure, and converted to a different type of rock as a result - essentially the same as igneous rock in terms of earthbending.

As for why contact is needed or preferable for earthbenders: I'd say that by being in contact with the ground, earthbenders are using their own energy to control the earth more directly, similar to how a landline connection is stronger than a wireless one. It's still completely possible to bend earth without physical contact, it's just that transmitting the instructions through earth is easier than through air. Although that raises the question of how it does get transmitted. Dust particles in the air, perhaps?

Metal creates a problem for earthbenders, since it has extracted out of the soil - being an element, rather than an organic compound, iron has no inherent chakra. No chakra, means nothing to use for bending. Toph can sense the miniscule particles of earth left within the metal during the smelting process (iron is never completely pure, and in fact the inclusion of some organic compounds composed of carbon and nitrogen can strengthen the metal). Although the metal itself is unaffected by Toph's bending ability, she can use the earth particles inside to force the metal to move, much as bloodbending forces people to move by controlling the water inside them. Nevertheless, the scarcity of earth in metal makes it quite difficult - if you watch the series, Toph never bends metal from a distance - she is always in direct contact. Also, she doesn't have the same precise control as she does with earth - she can force the seams of a metal barrier apart, but she can't make neat pedestals of metal rise up as she can with earth.

With regards to Toph's vibration sensing ability - I think it's essentially just that - a form of echolocation which she's attained through training. Thus, even though sand is essentially the same as earth, vibrations can't travel well in it, and so Toph is blinded. However vibrations travel well in metal - the fact that the metal isn't part of the earth beyond makes sensing through it unfeasible, but the vibrations travel through the actual metal quite well - enough for Toph to feel the returning vibrations from the organic impurities.

hhhmmm, I should go off and flesh this theory out a little more, post my own article...
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auka
Feb 21, 2009 3:41:55 GMT -6

Post by auka on Feb 21, 2009 3:41:55 GMT -6

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Alright, first of all I would say I agree with Kyo's approximation of how bending works more than anyone else I've ever come across. People have this gigantic tendency to Naruto the shiznatch out of Avatar bending. Throwing words like molecular, [blank]kenisis and the like. Try to science it up. Which I'm pretty sure would make Mike and Bryan want to wretch. They refuse to clear these things up on purpose. Bending to them is their art, they created it, and I"m pretty sure they don't want to cheapen it by having to explain the magic behind it. They purposely leave everything in doubt, not for fans to draw their own conclusions but because they want it to be completely ambiguous. They like having unanswered questions, they like leaving some magic in their world's form of magic. So what do I think Earthbending is? Here we go, a spiritual connection with the Earth that manifests itself through discipline and training in martial arts forms that direct your 'chakra' [checkmate: Kyozuki] and align it in a magical and not completely understood way to affect the Earth with which you have an -unexplainable- mystical connection with. Thus explaining why Earthbenders cannot, and never will be able to crush the bones of others, why Waterbenders will never be able to rip the fluids out of people, why Airbenders will never be able to suffocate their opponents, why Earthbenders can't alter people because, and I'm paraphrasing here, Diamonds carbon! People carbon! ooh! ooh! ooh! and why Mike and Bryan will never get down and dirty with the mechanics of ANY bending style.
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Last edit by auka: Feb 21, 2009 3:44:50 GMT -6

Post by A Long Display Name Here on Feb 21, 2009 4:07:52 GMT -6

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First of all, Auka. There is absolutely NO need whatsoever to attack personal beliefs, or ideas, or opinions of our members. If you disagree, that is 100% a-ok and even incouraged when it comes to debating, but belief/idea bashing will NOT, and I repeat, WILL NOT be tolerated. It's rude, unwelcoming, and quite frankly, unneeded on TARP.

Secondly, there was no need to fluff up your post with all the reasons Bryke wouldn't want to 'science up' their creation. That has absolutely NO relevance whatsoever to the discussion at hand [which would be, "how exactly do earthbenders bend?"], and therefore, has no place in your post. We're discussing possibilities, not "ZOMG, you're ruining the show, the creators will vomit at your ideas!"

Lastly, back up your post. This is a debate, and as such, you need to provide evidence backing up your claims, rather than simply re-iterating what has been posted before you. Kyozuki backed up her argument with fact, and logic. You stated your belief and gave no evidence or even reasoning supporting it.

So, either re-format your post to be more polite, with reasoning and/or evidence to support your stance on this subject, and without any bashing [as bashing is against TARP rules], or delete it and repost. If you have any questions or comments on what I've just said, PM me, as I don't want this topic derailed. I happen to like this discussion that Kai posted.

To other members: Please ignore any idea bashing and rudeness; if they persist, and this goes with ALL members, not just Auka, please PM a Staff member. Thank you. ALL MEMBERS: please note, that as this is a debate/discussion thread — any belief or idea bashing, as of this post on, will constitute a warning level increase. I've seen too many good theory threads [here, and on other forums] get derailed beyond all hope because flaming starts.

Respect our ideas, and we will respect yours.




Kyozuki, what you've posted is a good thought, and it makes a lot of sense to me. That said, I think we're all pretty much on the right track here, something I didn't tell Kai when we IM'd about this. Bending has a lot of elements to it [rofl, pun] - there are many sides, many reasons why "x" can happen, yet "z" cannot. For example, if earth bending were constituted by chakra, or sensing seismic activity alone, there would be little need for skill or training. Perhaps only training to improve reflexes and what not, but if it were through chakra or seismic activities alone, all earthbenders would be able to perform amazing feats from the get go, and could only refine and perhaps expand.

The fact that bending ability needs to be trained, harnessed, says to me that there is more than just an internal sense [chakra, sensing ground movement], and that there is an external factor. Face it, 'magic' of the situation or not, molecules exist, and bending manipulates those molecules to the bidding of the bender. To say that molecules have nothing to do with bending would be stating that bending could not alter the state of an element, and as we have seen, in the Avatar universe, that's just not the case.

EDIT: If my argument goes in a circle, I'm sorry. xD I've had 4 hours of sleep in the last 48 hours, and my brain is muddled. I'll try and expand once I've napped a bit. xD
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Last edit: Feb 21, 2009 4:10:50 GMT -6
auka
Feb 21, 2009 4:44:18 GMT -6

Post by auka on Feb 21, 2009 4:44:18 GMT -6

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Well first of all, feel free to delete my first post. Secondly, I take offense to the idea that I didn't back up my claims with anything. I don't know how the rest of you feel, but I think that the creator of a series is this most reliable source of information on their creations. [Which is why I bred-grudgingly accept the prequels as canon per George Lucas' request.] Therefore, I think the fact that Mike and Bryan have stated numerous, numerous, times about the spiritual and magical nature of bending is ample evidence for my arguments. Or idea bashing as you call it. Now if we're going to go on I'd like to bring to other elements to people's attention.

Water and Fire.

Waterbending comes from the magic of the moon spirit. Not the moon's gravitational pull, not the way it affects the tide, it's magicky hoakum spirit. Why? Because it does. Yes it's that simple, mostly because it's stated in the show.

Firebending comes from the sun...spirit?

Ok, now lets look at why this is correct using gigantic holes in the theorys.

If waterbending only comes from the moon -spirit- why does a lunar eclipse stop it? Well obviously the answer must be that without the moon's gravitational pull the spirit can't work it's magic? Wrong. Why? Because it's stupid. When it comes right down to it, it's more than blatantly obvious that you can't just attribute bending to the transfer of energy or the like. Fortunately, the theological cop out maneuver works perfectly here, because the creators of that universe give it as the very explanation. Bending works in mysterious ways.

An Earthbending spirit is never once mentioned, but I'd assume there is one. Also, I'd back up my claim by pointing out the Waterbendin spirit once more, and say that all bending comes from spirit magic.
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Last edit by auka: Feb 21, 2009 4:45:58 GMT -6

Post by A Long Display Name Here on Feb 21, 2009 10:12:54 GMT -6

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Auka - please provide links with examples that cite Mike & Bryan stating that bending is ONLY explained by magic & spirituality, and to support your claims that there's 100%, for sure, no possibility whatsoever that there can be elements of science, and logic, to the magic of bending. Find me an interview with them from AvatarSpirit.Net, Nick Magazine, or some other reputable source for Avatar information [or even from a reputable news source] - anything that supports your claim that there can absolutely be NO other explanation other than "magic" or "spirituality" to the bending process [not bending ability, because that is not what's being discussed here]. If you can, post it here , and I will lock this thread, since it will be pointless if you can find it.

However, I don't think you will be able to find anything from the creators stating that bending is due to 'spirit magic', as Katara so niftily pointed out in season one: "It's not magic. It's waterbending."

EDIT: Additionally, Water and Fire have nothing to do with this debate. We're debating earthbending here, and not really taking into consideration the other elements at this point. It's one thing to back up your argument with examples from other bending, but you've not really supported your claims with anything other than 'it's not in the show, but I'm just gonna go with it since there's one for another element.' Again, this is a debate. Follow up your stances with linked evidence from reputable sources, or with clear-cut logic, much like Kyozuki.
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Last edit: Feb 21, 2009 10:22:36 GMT -6